Any of you that read macker's site know that he and I and emdot and Beermary will every now and then, get into a four way battle royal over matters theological. Macker, of course, is on the side of the angels. I carry the flag for the Dark Side. Marya (Magdelene) and Mary kinda sorta referee, but will toss a rabbit punch in the kidneys at one or the other of us on behalf of the Buddhists and the whatever it is Mary calls herself these days. :-)

Anyway, one of the more recent gangfights (see the comments) was on the subject of salvation. Specifically, does it exist for those that do not believe in Jesus?

The bell dinged to start the match, and macker charged out and swung a dogma at me, busting me in the chops with the contention that Jesus was the only way to get to heaven. I shook it off, and pile-drove him headfirst through the canvas with the following dilemma: You (meaning Xians) would have us (meaning the agnostic humanists, or Deists, or whatever the hell it is that I am) believe six impossible things before breakfast, to wit:

For (1) to be true, then there must be some sort of Plan B for all those poor souls that don't get a fair chance as salvation, so then (2) must not be true. Yet both of these contradictory axioms must be held to be true by every flavor of Xian I've ever come across.

Macker responded with the last and most common argument Xians use when faced with such a paradox, a profession of faith that God could work all this stuff out, (I'm summarizing ruthlessly here) while some dude named John, heretofor an lurker to the rumble, just called me a dead horse that they should stop beating. Clearly I am on of the Unrepentant Fallen. The match was called on account of exhaustion on both our parts, I think, after 26 comments in the thread.

But macker is not the only Xian blogger I read. Donald Sensing of One Hand Clapping wears a few hats. One of them is as a Methodist minister. He is in fact the pastor of his church. I don't know if he was reading our tussle, most likely not, but an essay he just wrote, "Is Heaven A Private Club?" addresses this very topic, and does a damn good job.

From his essay: 'Heaven is not a private club for anyone or any group. Heaven falls under the sole sovereignty of a holy and gracious God. Only God can establish the conditions by which human beings enjoy eternal life in his presence. All knowledge human beings have about God is limited, partial, and fragmentary, so we must approach questions about salvation and eternity with deep humility. If the fullness of God is like a vast ocean, at best we can get our toes wet. Any person or faith who claims certainty about the whole of God's providence is, frankly, inexcusably arrogant. At the minimum, we must admit that not only is God's grace greater than we imagine, it is greater than we can imagine. The gates of heaven will almost certainly open wider than we think."

He solves the dilemma, unsolvable as I stated it, by disallowing one of the premises. With some deft theological judo, he says that while Jesus is the means by which salvation is made possible, direct belief in him may not be required. He backs this up with scriptural citation, (though admitting other scripture may contradict his reading) and in the process, brings up the idea that the moment of death may not be the last point at which salvation is possible. This is a bonus helps reconcile the contradictory ideas of Eternal Damnation and Infinite Mercy.

Now go read the whole thing.

To the extent that Rev. Sensing's statements here have come to represent mainstream Xian belief, it is certainly a welcome, maturing, evolution of the faith. I would find it hard to believe, though, that there could be much acceptance of his reading of the Scripture that allows salvation after death. Unfortunately, however, it seems to me that is what it would take to solve the problem of young Abdul, taught from the cradle to actively hate all non-Muslims. While the gates of heaven may open wider than we think, it his hard to imagine a God that could accept both Abdul's faith and that of the Rev. Sensing as equally valid manifestations of the divine plan for man.

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Macker and I are smacking each other around over on his site, about, what else, of course you knew, sex and religion. BeerMary (How can you not love a woman that calls herself that? I'd prolly propose if she'd share me with CG) is alternating between reffing the slugfest and getting in her licks, too.

Rather than post it all here, why don't you just click over there? He could use the traffic. Macker's getting all turgid and swollen from all the Jeebus Freak hits he's been getting lately, since he joined a god-ring, so I imagine a few hits from the Dark Side will jack him right into orbit, or at least to the clouds and rain. :-)

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I wish I was creative enough to make this stuff up. If I were, I'd go down with Swift and Twain as one of the funniest satirists that ever picked up a pen.

It seems (read the full story here) that two groups of Xian monks, one Egyptian Coptic, one Ethiopian, have been sharing the roof of a shrine in Jerusalem. Each group had it's own designated area.

Well, it seems that one of the monks, who had been living up there since 1970 got too hot, and moved his chair a few feet into the shade. Unfortunately those few feet belonged to the other group. A freakin' fight broke out between the two groups of doddering holy men, with chairs, among other things, being hurled. Where are the Jerry Springer bouncers when you need them?

By the time this Clash of the Geriatric Titans was over, eleven monks were injured. One was knocked out, and another had a broken arm.

People wonder why I think religion remains the thing that humans must outgrow before we can "all just get along."

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