Hammer and Tongs Redux

macker and I be warring again. I had to move my reply to our latest skirmish over here, as his sorry-ass yaccs comment system will only allow a 2500 word reply.

To see the original post, and comment thread, go here, assuming that the blogger crud is working.

macker's comments are in maroon. As in Bugs Bunny, "what a maroon." Jes' kiddin'. "you know full well from what you deduce from my life(style) that I am not a pro-nudist.

I once took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, with all the freedoms it entails, against any enemy, foreign or domestic, and, in the course of eight years of service, repeated that oath more than a few times. I don't think that oath expired with my service.

Hence my mortal antipathy with any person or institution that would attempt to infringe on the freedoms detailed therein.

I don't find myself particularly "pro-nudist." I don't really care, personally, whether I ever visit another nudist camp again.

It's just skin. I've seen enough nekkid folks in my life (male and female) to be immune to any any emotional or physical reactions, either of attraction or repulsion, based on the nekkidness alone.

But I will oppose, to the best of my meager ability, any action by any group, though they even be a majority, to prevent those folks from exercising their rights to run around in their birthday suits. I don't care if it's my ox getting gored or not. I'd even fight to keep the right for you to attend the church of your choosing.

Surely, though, wouldn't a reaction to human nudity as blase' and unremarkable as that which you might feel looking upon a table leg, or a female face (which would send an Islamofascist in to paroxysms) be a beneficial development in our culture? Wouldn't that kick the underpinnings out from under a lot of stuff that you currently regard as sin?

I recall this thread, though not with perfect clarity. I do seem to recollect somebody asking you if you were going to exorcise any videos that contained violent crimes, along with those that had nudity and/or sex. (Timothy, or em, or even me? I truly don't recall)

To make another point, I will say that I agree that some content is best left for later in life. Seeing folks getting wasted, as an example, or some documentary about the Holocaust, or even the recent tapes of bin Laden's folks testing their gas on young dogs, is probably better left for more mature audiences. Kids need to grow up in an environment that is secure, with the idea that there are adults that will keep them safe from the Bad Guys.

Yet, you in your pro-2nd Amendment stance, (one which, for the casual reader of this blog, I whole-heartedly share) clearly advocate the keeping of arms in the family home. I expect that you do not think that firearms should be available to kids. Still, they are OK to keep around the home. Why would you not keep such adult materials as any R-rated movie in the same location as you keep your Colt, rather than trashing them, and then, allow your kids the same access to them at the level of age and maturity that you would your personal weapons?

"you and our friends who chastised me over it know full well what I was driving at, but preferred to make the point that I am a prude. far from it, and you know this as well."

In all honesty, mike, I don't/didn't know that. I don't know what you were driving at. I have said, in several instances and forums, that some of your ethical ideas are more based in Puritannical traditions than any arguments of reason, ethics, or even scripture, and have offered several examples and metaphors (the table leg thang being the latest) to try and demonstrate it. "paint me in the full light as you know me, or paint your accurate suppositions of what I am about and why (the kid with $.50 in the candy store is fitting), with my blessing. but stick to the preaching on your site and let me do mine here."

Hey, if my writing in the comments here how I truly feel, my thoughts, and my reactions, somehow offends you, and is something you'd rather not see, then let me know, and I'll stop yesterday. No hard feelings at all. What I won't do is self-censor.

[Addendum: as I was putting the finishing touches on this post, mostly formatting it, macker called me, and we hashed out most of the stuff I wrote here. But dammit, I ain't gonna type all this stuff out for nothin', so I'm posting it anyway. :-) ]

mld, 8/21/02, 1:25 AM

Heh...

As bad as I type, I'm not sure we need to attribute Freudian slips. Maybe it was the draw-emdot-outta-the-woods gambit. :-)

Seriously, though, I just screwed up. You've been to enough chats to know the truth of this.

Speekina witch, you making it to the chat tonight?

... link

macker, 8/21/02, 2:25 AM

naked prey

taken from http://www.seventysevens.com/lyrics/praynaked.html#praynaked

Pray Naked

no matter who you are
no matter what you do
there's only one thing
i ask of you
and that's if you pray
then when you pray
be naked prey
pray naked

... link

you did it again. passed up my point for the opportunity to lecture me. not that I mind, as you well know (most of the time).

please note I never said I advocated control over one's bodily acts, clothed or otherwise; you inferred it. please note also my response was never about physical nudity, while both of yours were.

you're dangerously close to being guilty of that which you so oftenly accuse me of.

love you too, natch. hope to make the chat.

Children don't know it's "wrong" to be naked until we teach them. We teach them that the human body is something to be ashamed of and hidden. Then they see in ads and catalogs, tons of skin, but only the skin of perfect bodies. Is it any wonder that female teenagers have absolutely no confidence and self-esteem?

I was raised that way, and I can't even have sex with the lights on! So really, which attitude is more damaging, open nudity in select private clubs and beaches, or the repeated message to "cover up and hide your shame"?

What is "decent" and what is "inappropriate for children" is totally convoluted in American popular opinion. Have you seen some of the video games the 10 year olds are playing? I think of the South Park movie (one of my favorites). As Kyle's mom says, "Deplorable violence is OK, just as long as you don't say any naughty words!"

The violence that is shown on TV and the news is more damaging to their young psyche than a love scene from a movie where you see someone's butt. Unless it's Rosanne's butt or something horrible like that.